Jailon Lyon is a 21 year old St. Louisan joining Imani Warren on the season 3 premiere of Ice Cream Social this Sunday, September 10th.
As someone who is fat, black and queer, Jailon has faced many struggles and caveats that intersect with their identity. Going to predominantly white schools has lined their struggle and understanding of their apparent place in the world in the context of society.
In this week’s episode of Ice Cream Social, Jailon and Imani discuss the inner workings of identity through the personal lens. The two discuss desirability politics, acceptance throughout each intersection of their identity, and what it means to accept and love yourself through it all.
What do you think? Leave feedback in our YouTube or Instagram comment section!
Imani Warren
Welcome back to Ice Cream Social, and thank you guys for listening to our song of the week, Paradiso by Azealia Banks. I want to welcome you back to season three. Thank you for sticking with us and hello to all the people who are new to Ice Cream Social. Welcome, welcome, welcome. It's an amazing show for people who love to talk about social issues. And that's leading right in to our guests of the week today. We have Jailon. Hey, Jailon!
Jailon
Hiii!
Imani Warren
OMG. Okay, so we have Jailon, and Jailon today is going to be a call-in guest. I like to use FaceTime you guys. I mean, some people like zoom. I don't like the audio quality. I like FaceTime. I think it actually really is, you know, like, this is nice, huh?
Jailon
It's a nice vibe. It feels authentic.
Imani Warren
Yeah, I think so.
Jailon
Zoom feels like... the pandemic.
Imani Warren
Friend. It's just a lot of bad memories there with Zoom anyway.
Jailon
Yeah, I don't -- I'm not doing it.
Imani Warren
I'm not vibing.
Jailon
When you said FaceTime it actually warmed my heart. I was like...
Imani Warren
Really? Yes!
Jailon
I actually knew you had it super together when you said FaceTime because for someone to be able to take something like FaceTime, and then transform it into a whole production.
Imani Warren
Friend, I wish I could send you-- Okay, so let me take a picture right now. Okay, guys, I'm gonna stop and take a picture of my setup.
And this is our poem of the week by Jailon. It's called 'No One Wants.'
Jailon
Sometimes it's hard to exist. It's hard to exist in a world where no one wants: fat. When seemingly your existence is based on taking up too much space. Too much attention. Too much noise. Too much life. No one wants to offer us a seat at the table. They make it so we won't fit. No one likes: black. When your skin color is a natural barrier between you and kindness. You and success. You and stability. You and sanity. No one wants to respect us. They strip us of it the moment they see us. No one wants: queer. When your sexual orientation and gender expression is turned into a weapon of mass destruction, a book of misinformation, a propaganda. An image of obscenity. No one wants to understand us. They stop listening before we speak. And so I say, it is hard to exist. Hard to exist in a world where no one wants: fat, black, queer.
Imani Warren
Wow. Thank you so much. I am so glad. You guys don't know this but Jailon told me that Jailon is not a writer. And I'm like, I don't know it kind of gives, it kind of gives. Talking about you not a poet but you kind of ate that up a little bit. I liked that friend. Okay.
Jailon
You were like, do you have a poem? So, I went to my notes, like okay what am I gonna do?
Imani Warren
Let me get into it. Let me get into it. Like, lock in twin. Lock in!
What are you here to talk about today, Jailon? You know, tell me about yourself.
Jailon
Okay, well...
Imani Warren
Okay, queen! Love you.
Jailon
I'm here to talk about being fat, black and queer!
Imani Warren
Yes friend.
Jailon
Um, so I mean, my identity is very complex. I don't think being fat black and queer is that complex. I think people make it complex. But I mean, outside of those things, I am a Rochelle Jordan lover. A kind of like a Azealia Banks MUSIC enjoyer. We're gonna just kind of ignore...
Imani Warren
Let's make a distinction, guys.
Jailon
Yeah, let's make a distinction! I am a person who loves books writing, you know, just a regular individual with regular hobbies. People complicate things because of my identity or exclude me from things because my identity. Doesn't make me a victim per se, and I don't allow people to turn me into a victim. You know.
Imani Warren
So what do you think about your identity that other people is making complicated? What do you think they're making complicated for you? Because I hear that, and I see that, but I can't pinpoint it.
Jailon
I think that we live in a society that is extremely vain. I think that we live in a society that is extremely superficial. It's interesting living in a society like that when we've all been conditioned to have our own beliefs about beauty, beliefs about what you should be, what you should look like, what's your talk like? How you should present yourself in what you should, like, you know? I feel like this society and just the world tries to control people i.e. cultural norms, societal norms, like everybody kind of has a status quo. Even in states such as the United States that has this big emphasis on individualism, right? I still feel that I think the reason that people like complicated is, I mean ... I'm kind of just repeating myself.
Imani Warren
But I'm understanding what you're saying. You're saying that these norms that people are kind of pushing because of what other people are doing, what governments are doing, what higher powers are doing, is making it complicated for you on the individual level to exist.
Jailon
Yeah. I do think that there's just kind of a vanity, and I do think that there is just a level of superficiality that just takes away from some individuals. It's just -- it's not even a fat, Black, queer thing. It's a disabled thing, right? It's a woman thing, it's an anybody who's just in a marginalized group, you know? So it's very complicated. It's only complicated because people make it complicated. It's interesting when the same people who share intersections with you, when people who share those things with you still discriminate against,
Imani Warren
What do you mean by that? Like, do you mean people who are black and you know...
Jailon
So one thing that I typically tell people about being fat, Black and queer is that one thing that is so isolating about it is I kind of have three things working against me. I feel like sometimes if I had two, it would'nt have been so much of a struggle. Because it's the more, kind of like intersections you have, the more it kind of closes you off from others who are also exposing you to so many different people who you just don't click with, because of the different intersections that you have. It's complicated. But the best way to explain it is that sometimes you can't connect with gay people, because you're black, or you're fat and Black. Sometimes you cannot connect with -- I mean, I hate this notion that Black people have a homophobia problem that extends way past the entire world. But sometimes you can't connect with Black people because you're gay. You know what I mean?
Imani Warren
I really do. I like that you said that because I think that a lot of times a lot of people, especially people who are Black, like to point to the black community as an example of homophobia, but there's so many communities that are homophobic, not starting or ending with the black community.
Jailon
Yeah! Tt's just because it's so internalized, right. We grow up and we experience it. People have tried to bully me who weren't Black, you know, for being gay. And I mean, it just doesn't work. You know, it just, it doesn't intimidate me as much as somebody of my own race, calling me a slur. This is completely different. It's a completely different level of fear. And this a completely different level of kind of disrespect and pain, that you feel because a person looks like you. And then like, you know, being fat sometimes because you're black and queer, there is just elements that just don't vibe with that very well. Ironically, I will say that being fat is probably the one thing that it's just all across the board in most communities just unacceptable, and this kind of goes back to vanity.
Imani Warren
I completely agree. I think the way that I understand how fat people are viewed within communities is very, very rigid. I mean, just going back to thinking about America's Next Top Model, thinking about how people view weight in 2006 versus 2016, even is completely different. And we're approaching 2026. Like, it's going to be so different. Tthe models you see and how skinny they are in media and modeling. People are literally like, no, she looks deathly skinny, she can't even come on my show. Like she literally can't. You know what I mean? That's something that I've definitely heard about and experienced over time where people are saying like, no, this person is too skinny now. So, I wouldn't say I like to see that, but it is really encouraging, I think, for other people who aren't skinny like that, to see people who are skinny like that, be rejected and be turned away. And it's something that's new, I think for the community for sure.
Jailon
Yeah, is definitely something that is extremely new for the community. Yeah, hands down.
Imani Warren
Yeah. So I want you to tell me about desirability politics. What does that mean for you and what does that mean for other people as well?
Jailon
Interesting. Desirability politics. I think this is the one question that kind of stumped me just a little bit. Could you give me a little bit of a refresher a little bit of your personal opinion on desirability politics because when I heard that word, I can't pinpoint it to a single definition.
Imani Warren
Okay, so I have a lot of experience with desirability politics. I have a lot of experiences with desirability politics because, okay, to my interpretation, I'm a dark skinned black woman. Other people may view me as like brown skin, like I've had that argument my whole entire life, but whatever. I'm a Black woman at the end of the day, and I have come second, a lot of times to women who are mixed or women who look more white than I do. So that doesn't mean white women, but just one's that look more white than I do. I grew up having a best friend who was very, very light skin and you know, curly hair, you know, body and I feel like a lot of people desired her. And it wasn't necessarily that it was a benefit in that way, but it wasn't something that I was experiencing. And because I wasn't experiencing, I felt like it was political because she was having almost -- so I think the politics is based on power. So she was having like, almost a power over certain things because she was so desired. So I think desirability politics is when the desire that someone possesses like, you know, typically, like some type of, quote unquote, desirable or conventionally desirable person, that power that they possess, giving it to someone and giving them power and saying, I desire you. And because I desire you, you have more power than other people in my mind, you know, you have more power to do more things, or you have more flexibility with who you are. You have more political power in this way. Anybody can argue about what the definition of politics is, but that's kind of what I see desirability politics is.
Jailon
I think, because for me personally, so you know, me, I kind of read a lot of peer reviews. Not a lot of them, but I've read a lot of peer reviewed articles, especially in college as an African American Studies major, and I feel like desirability politics has come up, sometimes, but it's still just kind of something where like, I haven't really, I've never been extremely invested in the topic. So excuse me if I butcher anything, but from my understanding from both your definition, and then just kind of what I can read, kind of go back and just grasp at. So we're talking about, like, the hierarchy that kind of comes with beauty and desirability and just other things and other aspects. I feel like desirability is something that is so passive, and something that's just gonna be that is ingrained. And like almost everything in society. Because for some reason, beauty is just worth. Being desirable is definitely seen as worth. And is that true? No. Because there's tons of amazing -- and also, who is to say, I don't, you know -- who determines what this hierarchy is. Who determines who's at the top of this hierarchy and who's at the bottom of this hierarchy? And how are all people supposed to kind of adjust to it? But I think desirability politics is extremely complex. And I think that, before we can even dive into a topic so deep, we kind of have to all sit and assess ourselves and assess the ways that we participate in it.
Imani Warren
So do you think that as someone who's fat, Black, and queer, do you think that you either participate or are affected by desirability politics?
Jailon
Oh, definitely. Hands down?
Imani Warren
Which one? Do you think you participate?
Jailon
I mean, I would say, yeah. I would say I think I'm both a participant and I think that both I'm affected by it. When I say I think I'm a participant in desirability politics, I try to see everybody on an individual human level. There are some parts of myself, that also continued to be a little bit vain. To be honest, there are some parts of myself that can kind of look down on others. And honestly, sometimes I look down -- I mean, I think this is also just the reaction of me being fat, Black and queer, but sometimes I've literally just looked down on like, literally anybody else who's not within my group of being fat, Black, and queer as well. I'm a big promoter of love. I'm a big promoter of, if you were treated like crap, that does not necessarily mean that you kind of turn around and treat other people like crap. I think that that's extremely counterproductive, and I think at the end of the day, it doesn't resolve anything. So I do think that honestly, like, even though somebody is more likely to be kind of like, at the top of that hierarchy of desirability politics, and me looking down on them, it's still kind of perpetuating and participating, if that makes sense.
Imani Warren
That makes perfect sense, and that's a really good point. I would never have thought about that in that way because even people who are considered not as fitting in with the status quo, they can still have their own desirability politics as well within their own scope and view of what's going on, which is definitely something that I think I think should be talking about.
Jailon
And to add one more thing, I do think that sometimes it's not always people that are higher, like, you know, we're all human, we all make our mistakes. And so, I think that they're just sometimes you come across -- there's always people that you kind of come across on not a daily basis, but I do think that there are some people that you kind of come across who you're not used to encountering those types of folks, and your first inclination is to kind of look down on them because you don't understand them. I think that that definitely had ties into desirability politics now when I go as far as to kind of ruin things for them, exclude them for things not work with him. No, but also there is this kind of inclination to kind of like, distance yourself from things that you sometimes don't find desirable in the initial moment. And that in return kind of creates the feelings that I felt as a fat, Black, queer person. A lot of people don't understand me initially, and then they get to know me, and then it's a completely different story.
Imani Warren
Yeah. You know, it's almost like that internal feeling being externalized. I completely, I completely understand what you're saying. So, I want to look at the exclusion that comes with being fat, Black and queer. I want you to talk about what the exclusion looks like for you and maybe like some unknown parts about the exclusion that people just don't think about. People just don't talk about.
Jailon
Okay, this is definitely I think, something that I'm very excited to talk about because the exclusion is not so, "Oh, people exclude me, I feel so victimized." It's not that type of exclusion. The type of exclusion that I face as a fat, Black, queer person literally stops me from forming relationships with people, and I tell people this all the time. I've had like some best friends you know, over the course of the years, and some people who have respected me enough to kind of claim me as their best friend, at least in high school, but I didn't get my first best friend Jordan who was also on here.
Imani Warren
I love Jordan. Okay, everybody actually, let's just shouts out Jordan. I love Jordan so much. I'm a Jordan stan. Literally my favorite. Like, like Jailon you know what I'm talking about?
Jailon
Yes, like that's my bestie. Go back and listen to the emotions episode if you have not! But yeah, so Jordan is definitely like my first best friend. Llike my first best, best best friend. And I think that that's because, for once I didn't feel like excluded, you know, someone who was kind of on the same level as me, and someone who could, you know, invite me and there'd be kind of... But, okay, what I'm trying to say, as far as exclusion is, I feel like I've had friends, and I feel like I've had relationships, but I've never been able to make an actual connection with people. And so the exclusion is not always, "Ew, I'm not going to talk to him, because he's fat, Black and queer." Sometimes it's as simple as people kind of are open to you being in their spaces, open to you being in their circles, and they're willing to receive some parts of you, but I feel like there are very few people in my life who've been able to receive every part. And that is the exclusion. It's there. I mean, that in itself, I feel like I have only a handful of people in my life who I've really been able to have a genuine kind of connection or a genuine relationship because they're willing to accept and include all parts of myself into a situation. So when you are fat, Black, and queer, feeling like you have friends, especially like, you know, like the black hotties
Imani Warren
Home girls, home girls.
Jailon
You know, the hot girls! They only really accept you into the group because you are Black, you know, the queer part is kind of like a sideeye. The fat part is definitely a sideeye. You are in the circle and people see you, but you know you don't fit in, and you know that there is an inherent exclusion. You're not going to get invited to every event, you're not going to be respected.
Imani Warren
That just hurts. You know, that hurts to hear, I mean it's just so real. I mean, that hurts to hear, you know, like, queer, Black woman, I completely understand what you're saying. If I go into groups of all women, they might accept that I'm queer and Black. If I go with groups of all queer people, they might not accept that I'm Black. I understand exactly what you're saying.There's certain parts of your multifaceted intersectional identity that may never be accepted by groups of people who you are expected to accept you because they accept one part of you. It can be misleading to the soul almost where it's like, oh, I thought these people were like down for who I was. Then you realize, like, no, they're not and you're right, you won't get invited to every event. That reminds me I was in first grade and you know they have CCl. Right?
Jailon
Yeah.
Imani Warren
So CCl, if you don't know is like the gifted program at my school. So we're in the CCL line waiting for the CCL bus with the CCL kids or whatever. So this girl named Cela VanLieshout goes and she's like, "Oh, my mom told me to get these invitations to all the girls in CCL." For her birthday party. And then she skipped over me. I was like, "Why'd you skip over me?" And she was like, "My mom said that you can't come because you're Black. Also she said that you probably won't be able to get there because your mom doesn't have a car." I was like oh my god like what the he --
Jailon
Dead serious?
Imani Warren
Like you're being real right now, but that that was a moment where they they accept me because I was a girl you know what I'm saying? But not because I was a little black girl like they didn't want that around or being poor. You know what I mean? Like, there was always a line drawn. So like I really feel what you're saying it really it hurts to hear.
Jailon
Yeah, and so that's why especially in this day and age a lot of my friends are Black and queer. I feel like if my friends aren't Black and queer, they have to have kind of like an extra like intersection. Like an extra part of their identity, that just really helps them understand exclusion that way they can accept all parts of me. So like, if you're going to be Black and queer, you're going to be feminine. I don't have any Black and queer friends that are masculine. I don't, primarily because you still just don't understand. I actually was really pissed off last night because I saw a Tik Tok about, again, some Black gay man going onto a platform -- I'm sick of people giving platforms to people who just absolutely don't deserve them-- talking about he doesn't hang out with gays because they do too much. And I was just like, okay, whatever.
Imani Warren
They're getting bold! Like, that's crazy.
Jailon
Bolder! I also think that that's also something that affects me too. A lot of people are, I feel like there's a lot of radicals that are able to get onto these platforms, because they're radical and being radical and being out of the box, and extra is going to get you more attention than kind of spewing something that's in the realm of sense. I feel like a lot of queer radicals, especially, kind of get on to these podcasts and onto these sites and just spew, spew, spew all of these random theories that don't even have like a proper framework to exist in the society. Everybody just immediately dogpiling on that person in the community, first and foremost, and they hold this belief about the community and then in return still comes back and affects us. But yeah, the exclusion tidbit is more like that. I think every gay boy relates to having a group of friends, they're all women, and there comes that time of the night where everybody has to use the restroom, and all of the girls they go to the bathroom. And as the gay boy, you are not allowed to go into the restroom. So you just kind of sit there for about 10 to 15 minutes in sorrow trying to understand why you'll never be invited in. You know, why you can't come in. Trying to understand, you know, why nobody thought to wait, to take turns, and I think that that's kind of what that exclusion feels like.
Imani Warren
Yeah, that's a good point. I never even thought to wait and take turns. It definitely opens my mind to something in the future. But, you know, going back to what you're saying about being radical, I definitely was, I think when I was like 16, like 17 to like 19, I like consider myself an anarchist. I thought that that was the best way to go. That was like the only way to go really, like it made sense to me. I was like, anarchy can't be applied, but like a lot of things can't be applied, and they still like feel like they make sense, and I forgot what moment I had, but I was talking to somebody, and they explained it to me and I was like, wait, that doesn't even make ... like not, you know what I mean? I really felt like that and I still feel like people should be able to govern themselves. But saying like, I'm an anarchist. The only reason I was saying it was because it sounded like you know what I mean? Like, I was doing something you know,
Jailon
Being an ana-comm at the time was definitely like...
Imani Warren
At the time! You know, it was the time! They don't know about 2019. They don't know about that.
Jailon
At the time, being an ana-comm was -- it was a way that you could kind of communicate with people that you had a likeminded view on a situation. I honestly think that that's what part of it was because I mean, I've always been very moderate and just anything across the board. But, you know me being fat Black and queer, I've definitely connected with a lot of anarchist primarily because they view people whole, you know? There's always bad apples, but for the most part, they was cool. You know, disregard the fact that I wasn't reading a lot of the books that they wanted me to read because I just didn't care I didn't
Imani Warren
I didn't read any. I was just down. Like, I was just down for it!
Jailon
But, look, I got you friend!
Imani Warren
That's what I'm saying. It was just a time for me and then I kind of -- I don't know what happened but something happened I was like wait that actually that really doesn't make any sense. So now, like ain't nobody trying to be a Democrat! Like ugh, God don't make me! I'm definitely not going to be a r- r- rep-
Jailon
Don't. W-wh-what is that? What is that word?
Imani Warren
So like for now I'm like politically not affiliated. We're like, though do is like Snape or Voldemort or whatever, like don't say that shit. But okay, well, I mean, thank you so much for coming on to talk to me today. I feel like, you know, this was one of the more important conversations I've ever had, especially when it comes to visibility, and I really appreciate you for talking with me. This was great.
Jailon
Yes thank you so much. This is definitely a perfect segue. And honestly, this got me very familiar with podcasts because as someone who wants-- or someone who's in the process of starting one, I still haven't quite knocked off the cobwebs as far as my speaking.
Imani Warren
But this definitely, you know, got you in some practice, right?
Jailon
Yeah, it got me some good practice.
Imani Warren
Yeah, that's good. And, you know, I think that just the more you talk with people. For me, my biggest thing is sharing the microphone. I'm always like, yeah, mmhm, because I'm just interested, you know what I mean, and I'm trying to cut back on that type of thing. But, I think you'll do amazing. This was a wonderful conversation. You know, speaking of your own podcast, can you tell me more about your podcast, and like, what that's going to be like. This episode will be out on the first weekend of September.
Jailon
Okay. Um, so my podcast is titled 'Fat, Black, Queer,' and it is a seat at the table for people who've never quite had a seat at the table. That is my whole new branding thing. But interestingly enough, with me giving you a seat at the table, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to agree on everything, right? I am just welcoming anybody who accepts me and accepts my voice and my platform. And in return, I accept you. And I love you, and I celebrate you. You celebrate me, I celebrate you. So I say all that to say on this podcast, I'm going to be covering a slew of topics. Ranging from, we're going to have current events that we'll talk about, which will kind of be why recording and airing will kind of have to go hand in hand like at least within the week. I want to be kind of very -- Have you ever heard of the read?
Imani Warren
No, tell me about that.
Jailon
The Read is a podcast with I think her name is Crissle and Kid Fury. Basically, ythey kind of covered current events, but they kind of do it in like a weekly or like a biweekly kind of format. Kind of a little inconsistent with their filming schedule, but they do at least film current events. So, it'll kind of be something like that. Anyways, we'll do a range, we'll do a current event section. So we'll kind of have the tea. Then, we'll kind of have like a section where we'll have like a main topic, very similar to yours, and we will just kind of discuss the main topic. I feel like this is great, because I feel that there are lots of conversations surrounding fatness, Blackness, queerness, and just pop culture events that a lot of people are giving their perspective on. But I just sometimes have yet to hear a perspective that is very unique, or that makes sense, while also being unique, if that makes sense. I really feel like I have ideas and different ways of thinking that also really change things and so with that podcast, that's definitely the plan. I don't know. It's very choppy. We're not recording anymore, are we?
Oh, no, we're recording this is going to be -- this is good.
Jailon
Oh!
Imani Warren
This is good stuff! I want to make sure that this podcast is in collaboration with your podcast to get you some visibility.
Jailon
Sorry!
Imani Warren
Don't be sorry, friend. That was good. That was a good explanation.
Jailon
Really?
Imani Warren
Yeah. I like that. I like what you got to say that was good, you guys. Yeah, that was great. I think that what you're saying is perfect. I think that there needs to be a seat at the table. There needs to be this type of podcast, people need to listen. I think that you have traction to have a really good social media standing. I think you know how the internet works. So, I really think that it can be good for you. And you know, I'm hoping to do more collaborations in the future because that sounds like really impactful and important. So good work. Good work.
Jailon
Yeah, I'm trying to find my voice. I definitely know that I have a voice and I have it, but I'm just trying to figure out what exactly I want to reveal and what exactly I want to speak on. So that's kind of what's also been the whole backlog on my actual podcast, but it will definitely be coming out by the end of this year.
Imani Warren
Okay, wonderful. Okay, I love to hear it and you know, I want to thank you for coming on today, so much. Thank you so much.
Jailon
Thank you for having me. Honestly, it's been a pleasure.
Imani Warren
Yes, of course, and hope to see you soon. All right, you guys and now we're going to transition into our song of the week: Paradiso by Azealia Banks. First, I'd like to read you the quote of the week: "People accept the love they think they deserve."
Ice Cream Social is producted, edited, created and written by Imani Warren